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John Burton wrote on Jan 12, 2008 2:55 PM:

" studekid63: I'm curious? In what way do we disagree about Social Security? I don't remember making a comment about it other than to say it is on the road to insolvency (bankruptcy), which it is. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 12, 2008 2:52 PM:

" tdewing & studekid63: Thank you for your kind words. I would ask that you extend the same courtesy to the police officers in your own city. I think you would be surprised by the problems they see during their working hours. They see, do, and encounter the same problems I do. Maybe not the volume of problems, but certainly the types. Policework is policework, no matter where it takes place. Again, you are both very gracious. Thank you. "

tdewing wrote on Jan 12, 2008 12:00 PM:

" studekid63, I agree with you entirely, and I respect John Burton for doing a job I wouldn't consider. "

studekid63 wrote on Jan 12, 2008 9:29 AM:

" I am a registered Democrat but disagree with most of the partys leadership on social issues. I am playing the devils advocate here...I know John Burton and know he is/was? a peace officer in a larger metropolis. I can imagine him seeing on a daily basis the effects of generational welfare and entitlements on society in a light most of us do not. People doing nothing all day except getting drunk and high because they have no ambition to better themselves. The welfare system was not designed to be a way of life for people, it was meant to be a hand up, not a hand out. We are doing these people a great dis-service with these programs. Youngsters see their parents, grandparents loafing around all day and therefore have no role models. Now on certain points I do disagree with John, such as Social Security but he does have a unique perspective most of us are fortunate enough not to have to deal with. Imagine having to protect and defend these lowlifes who would rather bust a cap in your a** than look at you. I do not envy John his job. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 11, 2008 10:05 PM:

" Another difference, Ostin, is that we are still paying for the policies of LBJ---40+ years later---and their costs are continuing to rise. In the end, we'll all be better off if success in Iraq yields a stable democracy. Our efforts, and sacrifices, will have been worth it---both monetarily and in terms of lives lost. What has LBJs "Great Society Yielded"? Has poverty been ended? Have the divides between rich and poor closed? Have children become better educated as a result? Aside from creating ONGOING generational dependency, what has it yielded? It hasn't helped anyone, let alone the people it was ostensibly intended to. Quite the contrary, it has made their condition(s) worse. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 11, 2008 9:55 PM:

" Bush should never have signed the prescription drug plan, nor should he have signed NCLB; both are poor pieces of legislation. Farm subsidies are nothing more than corporate welfare and should be done away with as well. I have said many, many times that I feel that Bush has not been fiscally conservative. Might the war in Iraq cost trillions at the end of the day? Possibly, but I doubt it. Clearly I believe that the war is justified. And, unlike social programs, will have a finite amount of money spent on it; it won't be never ending. Bush has not been a fiscal conservative, nor was the congress; they were just as bad as he was/is. The difference between Bush and a Liberal is that Bush also signed into law tax legistalition which benefitted every single taxpayer and investor. He reduced the marginal tax rates and increased the amount of money which all savers/investors can defer for their retirements. In this way, he was light years better than any liberal/socialist. His spending policies, however, were atrociously poor. You won't get any disagreement out of me on that issue. "

ostinmontana wrote on Jan 11, 2008 8:24 PM:

" If socialism in the form of big, expansive (expensive) government is such a liberal idea, why did the conservatives in power enact Medicare Rx Coverage (more entitlements)? The Iraq War? No Child Left Behind (Bush personally asked Ted Kennedy to co-author that bill)? Farm Subsidies? More spending increases under Bush than any other president? Truly, the TRILLIONS your children and grandchildren will have to pay for the Iraq war alone is simply taking money from the private class earning sector and transferring to the governmental one--socialism at its finest. Hmmm...I thought only socialists and liberals were for expanded government and governmental spending--but wait, didn't Bush and a Republican Congress oversee the largest expansion in our government spending in decades? An Even greater expansion than under that Great Society Socialist LBJ?? If big government socialism is so bad, John, why do you support Bush and his big spending?? "

John Burton wrote on Jan 11, 2008 3:43 PM:

" I know what Merriam Webster's defines liberalism as; I also know what Marx defined it as. The reality is, however, that your definition is a utopian concept. The socialism practiced by the Kibbutzs of Israel was the closest the ideology of true socialism has ever come to having been successful. It lasted 2 generations. Every other manifestation of socialism has been a bastardization of an ideology which is unsustainable. History is history. Liberalism is absolutely rooted in socialism. You will do everything in your power to avoid the historical basis on which your ideology (Socialism) is founded. You are loathe to admit that your ideological bretheren are communists and socialists. You people like to cloak your collectivistic attitudes, tendencies, and principles in a self generated shroud utopian ideology. You also---as it your usual practice---use the definition of liberalism as the conclusion to the premise (your favorite circular argument) that liberalism/socialism is practiced as it is defined. As a classic elitest liberal, you also believe that you are more compassionate, nuanced, intelligent, fair, etc., because that is how "you" view yourselves. Again, reality and intellectual egotism differ---and radically so. This is exactly why liberals are viewed as snobbish and elitest. You all think alike. It is unbelievable that a group of people can be so egotistical as to believe that "they" are the only beings who are supportive of the principles of freedom and all of its manifestations. Liberalism is socialism, and socialism has failed in every single society/economy wherein it has been put into practice. You can dress a pig in dress, CJR, but it is still a pig. Liberalism is socialism; socialism is a failed ideology. Regardless of what school of liberal thought a liberal chooses to embrace, he achieves his ends via the same means: increased governmental intervention at the expense of individual freedom, and the redistribution of wealth. From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his means. That is liberalism. "

CJR wrote on Jan 11, 2008 1:06 PM:

" Rather than allow our resident genius JB to define liberalism, I'd defer to a more scholarly approach that has been researched & has a basis in reality. -- Liberalism refers to a broad array of related ideas and theories of government that consider individual liberty to be the most important political goal. -- Liberalism has its roots in the Western Age of Enlightenment.
Broadly speaking, liberalism emphasizes individual rights and equality of opportunity. Different forms of liberalism may propose very different policies, but they are generally united by their support for a number of principles, including extensive freedom of thought and speech, limitations on the power of governments, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, a market or mixed economy, and a transparent system of government. -- All liberals – as well as some adherents of other political ideologies – support some variant of the form of government known as liberal democracy, with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law. -- Liberalism rejected many foundational assumptions that dominated most earlier theories of government, such as the Divine Right of Kings, hereditary status, and established religion. Social progressivism, the belief that traditions do not carry any inherent value and social practices ought to be continuously adjusted for the greater benefit of humanity, is a common component of liberal ideology. Liberalism is also strongly associated with the belief that human society should be organized in accordance with certain unchangeable and inviolable rights. Different schools of liberalism are based on different conceptions of human rights, but there are some rights that all liberals support to some extent, including rights to life, liberty, and property.
Within liberalism, there are two major currents of thought that often compete over the use of the term "liberal" and have been known to clash on many issues, as they differ on their understanding of what constitutes freedom. Classical liberals, believe that the provision of negative rights, that is freedom from coercion alone, constitutes freedom.[4] As a result they see state intervention in the economy as unneeded, emphasize laissez-faire economic policy, and oppose the welfare state. Social liberals argue that freedom from economic as well as physical coercion is necessary for real freedom. They generally favor such positive rights as the right to vote, the right to an education, the right to health care, and the right to a living wage. Some also favor laws against discrimination in housing and employment, laws against pollution of the environment, and the provision of welfare, including unemployment benefit and housing for the homeless, all supported by progressive taxation.

"

CJR wrote on Jan 11, 2008 12:44 PM:

" More food for thought (previous Burton post) -- CJ(Complete Jack---): It's Monday. You only have to wait till the 30th to get your GSR. How are you holding out? Probably running low on beer, cigarettes and lotto tickets. Maybe some of your tweaker buddies can lend you $5.00 bucks for a pack of smokes. " -- CJ (Complete Jack---): I'm thinking that if I were to end up ever meeting you, you would be at one of the Town Pumps buying Mountain Dew, cigarettes and Snickers---at some time after 0000 hours. Tweakers usually are up at that time of the night needing to up their level of sugar from the stimulants they ingest. -- John wrote that at 3:43 a.m. a year ago. In fact he has written scores of rambling dislocated posts at 0000 hours. My question is, is HE a tweaker? -- When I commented that I am gainfully employed he changes his pathetic attack -- "Did I call it! Did I! He did exactly what I said he would do! Liberals are sooooooooo predictable! Especially this one :). HAHAHAHA!!!! How utterly classic! OMG! A guy could set his watch by these buffoons! It is absolutely amazing how these people all think that they are better, smarter, and more financially well off than the next guy." -- TWO-WAY John, too clever by half. He should give flip-flop lessons to Mit Romney! "

John Burton wrote on Jan 11, 2008 12:22 PM:

" As you spend a great deal of time quoting me, I felt it appropriate to use one of yours: "I can't recall even "one" instance where anyone on any of these posts advocated a redistribution of wealth. I can't even recall even one instance where anyone is clamouring for larger government." As a liberal/socialist, the endgame IS the redistribution of wealth via increased taxes. It's a known quantity. Your party openly ADVOCATES either the CREATION of NEW TAXES, or INCREASING THE RATE OF EXISTING TAXES. There is no denying it. The last time your party passed tax legislation which reduced taxes on individuals was under the Kennedy Administration. You don't individually need to say it---you party's voting record regarding taxes says it all. You redistribute wealth by taking from the "haves" and giving to the "have-nots." "

John Burton wrote on Jan 11, 2008 11:32 AM:

" I never attempt to run from my statements. You're exactly as I've described you. You're a typical liberal, an elitest snob. I say the other things about you because I know it irritates you, and for no other reason. (You're incredibly easy to bait.) And, since you compile a summary of everyone's remarks, you'll also have a number of posts in which I state---UNEQUIVICALLY---that Bush has done a miserable job of limiting the growth of the federal government. He is just as bad as a liberal in that sense. I have also stated in numerous posts that I COMPLETELY disagree with his stance on immigration. All this being said, governments aren't run by polls---unless it's a Clinton run government. You can disagree with the war, that is your right. I don't have a problem with that at all. What I do have a problem with, however, is the unending duplicity that is displayed by the so called leaders of the Demcoratic Party (socialists all) regarding the war. Calling the reason we entered into the war a lie...is a lie. They all (with the exception of Kucinich and Obama) voted to authorize the use of force (invade Iraq) based on both domestic (CIA, NSA) and foreign (Great Britain, Germany, France, Russia, et al.) intelligence estimates regarding Iraq's possession, manufacture, and use of WMDs. On top of all that, there are countless records of liberals (Kerry, Kennedy, Pelosi, Reid, Clinton (both Bill & Hillary) going on record (as late as 1999) stating that Saddam had WMDs. And, it is well documented that he (Saddam) murdered thousands and thousands of Kurds via the use of biological weapons. Your party's leaders are liars and disgraceful. The words they say, and their actions during war time, have provided aid and comfort to an enemy that needs to be eradicated from the earth. Why do your so called leaders do and say the things they do? Out of a hatred for Bush, and no other reason. It's all about power with you people. You're not interested in helping anyone, let alone the average man/woman. You and people like you are disgraceful. I don't define liberalism, CJR. History has done it. The Democratic Party, Liberalism, is rooted in socialism. If you are a liberal, you are a socialist. Liberalism is an anathema to capitalism and a free market economy/society---to say nothing of democracy and a free people. "

CJR wrote on Jan 11, 2008 9:10 AM:

" Just for laughs, here's a blast from the past. You see he (Burton) always engages in personal attacks & then tries to convince others he alone is smart & intelligent. In this particular post he accuses other writers of being on GR & then months later he's changed his attack to suggest I'm, an elitist snob who brags about wealth. Let's just call him 2-way. -- John Burton wrote on Mar 15, 2007 3:57 AM:

" Complete Jack--- and Poor Pete: The two simpltons in chief. How are things in bizarro world? How unfortunate that you, Complete Jack---, lack the linguistic skills to spar with me. You appear only to be able to regurgitate my words in an effort to try to make some pathetic point. Of course, as usual, you are wrong about why we are there now. We were there to rid Hussein of WMDs originally, but the plan has obviously changed since then. We are quite obvioulsy fighting terror over there. Of course you, and the simpleton Pete, aren't able to divine that like the rest of thinking America, but who ever thought of a liberal as a thinker; a brainless lemming maybe, but never a thinker. I guess the idiots you follow, Complete Jack---, must all believe that the people in Iraq will be better off if we leave them to be slaughtered in the resultant Religious Civil War which will ensue. So much for you morons being compassionate, hey? I don't understand why idiots like you and Pete feel the Government needs to be run by poll? I guess you must want a spineless, liar like Clinton back in office. Maybe you feel more comfortable having decisions being made for you by those who were unelected to do so? Oh, I don't know. I only know that if you two both combined your intellects, you'd both fall short of normal. I'm thinking that the only thing you know, Complete Jack---, is that your GR checks come on the 15th and 30th of every month. I don't think Pete is actually smart enough to figure that out. Pete, are you one of those foolio's who pay all you're bills by buying money orders? When you typed the word Imperial, did you start thinking of margarine? Complete Jack---, are you Abbot or Costello? Or, am I missing the boat? Maybe you two make up two thirds of the "Stooges." Yeah, maybe that's it...In the end, I'd much rather be a Con, than a dupe...like either of you. Take care, Boys...the 15th is here. Soon you'll both be fat, dumber (or in your collective cases, dumber) and happy---you know...collecting your GR, eating Snickers, smoking Marlboros, playing the lotto, drinking Mountain Dew, and complaining how the "workin' man jest cain't make a livin' wage nemore!" Wahoo! Good times ahead! " __ JOHN YOU CAN"T ESCAPE YOUR OWN WORDS.
"

CJR wrote on Jan 11, 2008 8:50 AM:

" It was mentioned that I and many others hate Bush. Well, that's not exactly true on my part, I just believe he's the worst president in US history & his administration has been terribly divisive. It wasn't that long ago when he first ran for president that he proclaimed that he was a uniter not a divider. One thing is for certain, he's managed to unite at least 70% of the American public to be opposed to how he has run the country. -- I'd also like to say that despite what Burton says, he's not the person who can define what liberalism stands for, he just has an opinion that he claims is fact. When you look at the political spectrum it IS true that those folks from the most rural areas tend to be more to the conservative side, but NOT so much in Butte and certainly not so much in the rest of the US. Regional differences aside, it IS true that the vast majority of Americans do NOT approve of the job Bush is doing. But I am also willing to note that his recent foray into Israel & his support for a Palestinian state and his criticism of illegal settlements is right on & now let's see if he (GB) can actually help bring some sanity to this part of the troubled world. Too bad he's done nothing to help the situation in the first 7 years. -- I couldn't pass without commenting on this ridiculous post -- JB writes, "I absolutely stand for what the average Montanan stands for, which just happens to be the opposite of what a guy like you (a socialist) stands for. You're for larger government, more governmental regulation, higher taxes and the redistribution of wealth." I can't recall even "one" instance where anyone on any of these posts advocated a redistribution of wealth. I can't even recall even one instance where anyone is clamouring for larger government. But it is a FACT that in the last 7 years under a Republican administration, government has EXPANDED far beyond the last Democratic administration. But let's establish this once & for all Burton's opinions are NOT actually facts, even when he claims otherwise. Him repeatedly saying socialist, socialist, socialist puts him in league with Mr. Geach who finds Bolsheviks under his bed & together they profess their fear non-stop. Fortunately, most people are much more aware & sophisticated in their analysis & are more inclined to be concerned with Bushavists trampling on our Constitution. "

peace4all wrote on Jan 11, 2008 7:09 AM:

" Oh,I see that I wrote correct instead of correctly. My apoligises. I did get the parties mixed up but I am fairly certain I am right about Burton,he allows only his view to hold any merit. And no , I am not a member of Mensa. I guess that would be obvious as I left off 2 letters in my post. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 11, 2008 1:34 AM:

" Hmmmm...let me get this straight, CJR. You don't keep track of what I say; yet, you keep a summary of the posts and what everyone contributes. Do you, perchance, have some sort of degree issued by the department of redundancy department? "

John Burton wrote on Jan 10, 2008 8:08 PM:

" Osty: I don't call regular folks Tard. I reserve that moniker especially for CJR. I also don't equate half the folks with Hitler; I equate them with Marx and Lenin. I absolutely stand for what the average Montanan stands for, which just happens to be the opposite of what a guy like you (a socialist) stands for. You're for larger government, more govermental regulation, higher taxes and the redistribution of wealth. I'm fairly confident you are probably for more restrictive gun laws, or making them illegal to own altogether. You're no different than any other liberal. You're all alike. For all I know, you interchange parts at night when you go to bed. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 10, 2008 7:56 PM:

" Peace4all: No, apparently you did not understand it "correct." "

John Burton wrote on Jan 10, 2008 6:52 PM:

" peace4all: I think you're a bit off the mark. A fascist (Hitler) was a Nazi, a National Socialist. As such, he was nothing more than a totalitarian (dictator) socialist who consolidated his power. The world's current fascist would be Venezuela's Hugo Chavez. What do fascists (individuals who are proponents of the nationalization of industry) and socialists have in common? They both want to redistribute wealth via the elimination of private property, which, in essence, ends up being nothing more than the redistribution of wealth via a different mechanism. So, no, you didn't understand it "correct." Do you happen to belong to the same Mensa chapter as concerned? Your post is enlightening. "

Peace4all wrote on Jan 10, 2008 6:09 PM:

" Let me get this straight so I can try to understand these post. If a Democrat is equal to a liberal and a liberal is equal to a socialist which then is equal to a communist then a Republician is equal to a conservative and a conservative is equal to fascist which is equal to a dictator. Whee! What a mouthful. Then a democrate,liberal,socialist,communist are all higher educated and a republician,conservative,fascist, dictator is under educated. To be educated is not good> So should we just put all the kids over 10 to work? Burton seems to favor ditch diggers but maybe a few could handle his job. Did I understand it correct? "

ostinmontana wrote on Jan 10, 2008 5:48 PM:

" Silvertip: I take serious issue with your statement: "but what he [Burton] is saying is really no different than what I hear on a constant basis from the regular folks in Montana." Regular folks in Montana don't call others "Tard" (as in R-Tard), don't equate half the population (Democrats) with Hitler, and certainly don't call adults they are talking with "little boy" or "little girl" derisively. In those ways, and most others, Burton is not like an average Montanan--he is more like a true Californian who has no respect for what Montanans stand for. Regular folks in Montana are decent, hard-working people who don't engage in such rude name-calling for the sake of nothing more than their own egoism. Additionally, I suggest you look past presidential politics for a moment and you will see that Montana is not as conservative as it used to be (and even Montana's conservative history is limited). With two Democratic senators, a Democratic governor and Democrats controlling the state Senate and much of the House, you can hardly call Montana conservative. At best, it is conservative leaning--but certainly it is a swing state that has become much more liberal in the past few years. After saying all that, I suppose I better go to Red China or Moscow now because apparently I'm a Commie Bolshevik out to ruin our country (according to people like Burton). "

silvertip wrote on Jan 10, 2008 4:33 PM:

" Thanks for catching my typo CJR, my appologies - it should have read "you do NOT represent the majority" I am not trying to put words in your mouth - I just do not think Burton is that far on the right, but you are certainly on the left wing fringe. I don't claim to know Burton, but what he is saying is really no different than what I hear on a constant basis from the regular folks in Montana. That is the whole point. You don't get out much, apparently. "

mr wrote on Jan 10, 2008 2:57 PM:

" Shouldn't you be off to Moscow, Mr. Bigshot? "

CJR wrote on Jan 10, 2008 2:18 PM:

" Silver did you really mean to say -- "it must be hard for you to deal with the fact that your opinions do now represent the majority. " I don't think you know what you're saying. And Burton, I don't track what YOU are saying, I keep a summary of the posts & what everyone contributes. I use it in contemporary topics. But again as the narcissist you are it's always just about you.
"

CJR wrote on Jan 10, 2008 2:12 PM:

" Silver, you indicated that I said anyone to the left of Burton is a liberal? No, I didn't. Nice try though. gee, I wonder if the state of Montana would still vote for Bush, knowing what they know now.? Food for thought. "

Disclaimer wrote on Jan 10, 2008 2:00 PM:

" Silvertip - There are whole lot of people who are conservative to various degrees, but I would agree with CJR that very few of them are as conservative as Burton. The guy is so one dimensional and extreme that it is impossible many are left of him, save skin heads, fascists, Nazis, Islamists, and those sorts. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 10, 2008 12:59 PM:

" Sarcasm is obviously lost on CJR, isn't it? I say to you the things I do because I KNOW they bother you. I have never seriously thought you to be a ditch digger. Only someone with as massive an inferiority complex as you makes the assumption that I believe what that I actually think you are a ditch digger. What your reactions prove to me, is that you are easily led down a path. As I said earlier, it is all too easy with you. You see how you react to my statement that you are a socialist and that liberalism is rooted in socialism? You are so very afraid of being known---being exposed!---for what you are that you will do anything---say anything---to avoid being cast as what you truly are: a socialist. You are a socialist. All liberals are socialists. Liberalism and is ROOTED in socialism. You can deny it all you wish. You're denying it won't change history, or historical fact. The liberal movement in this country can be traced back to elements of the socialist movement. To be known as a liberal/socialist is such an anathema that liberals/socialists felt the need to attempt to invent a new term (progressive) to identify themselves. You can identify yourself with ter, you like (democrat, liberal, progressive, etc.); you are still a socialist. Your party espouses socialism and its principles. The end game of socialism is to bring equality to all via the means of the redistribution of wealth. The fact that you ADMIT to tracking/saving the things I write tells me sooooooo much about you. It tells me you are insecure beyond belief. I could care less what someone like you says. I wouldn't waste the time it would take me to hit the "copy," "paste," and "save" buttons. To hear someone like you, all I need to do is turn on ABC, NBC, CBS, or CNN. There isn't a single original thing about you, your party, or its beliefs. Socialism is a failed experiment. Like I said, you make it all too easy. "

Silvertip wrote on Jan 10, 2008 12:13 PM:

" CJR...Show me the proof that 95% of people are left of Burton. That is your opinion. I know I am right because I grew up in rural Montana. Those areas are overwhelmingly consertative, not liberal. You think you are better than the average hard working person, you think you are smarter. You are not. Just because somebody goes on to college doesn't make them smarter or better. If you want some proof that you are wrong about 95% of the people are liberal(as you imply), go look up the last few presidential election results. If you are too lazy, here is what you will find, 89% of the MT counties voted for Bush...most by huge margins (2 or 3 to 1). Bush ended up with 59% of the vote...The only areas that went Democrat and voted for the liberal Kerry were, you guess it - the large counties with universities. You know, those places of higher learning that are full of liberals that do nothing but spout hate about America - those same people that do not represent the majority of rest of the state. So there is my proof...where is yours CJR?The 2000 election had the same result. We will just have to wait and see what happens this year, but either way you are the minority. You are worried about America's image to the rest of the world...who cares. Radical Islam will always hate America, no matter what we do....no matter how many 'olive branches' we stick out. It just kills you to admit anything positive about Bush or his policies. You are upset that things are going well in Iraq, because you want us to fail. You are full of hatred, it must be hard for you to deal with the fact that your opinions do now represent the majority. "

CJR wrote on Jan 10, 2008 11:54 AM:

" Burton's (I want it both ways) great pronouncements include I'm living off handouts, a welfare recipient, & tarded & then I'm telling everyone I'm better than everyone else. In his haste he argues two opposing mantras -- I'm a welfare liberal & then I'm a limousine liberal. But in each & every post he drones on & on -- "Power granted to and wielded by government is good---any liberal (Socialist/Collectivist/Bolshevist/Democrat) will tell you so." -- (I've NEVER stated that as my belief) -- "You're a socialist, and that's all you'll ever be." -- "Like I have said countless other times: You pissants (liberal wackjobs).." -- "You are socialists. A socialist's aim is to promote government over the individual at every turn." (Another misdirection, I've actually taken the government to task & you can see that I have, by ACTUALLY reading what I wrote) -- "Spoken like a true socialist" -- "You quote a non-partisan study (READ: liberal study) which makes idiotic allegations based on liberal points of view." -- (Actually my most recent sources/quotes came from the Christian Science Monitor & Financial Times of London not typically associated as socialist organizations) -- "You're a socialist and your party espouses Socialism. I'll say it again: You and people like you don't like being called what you are, socialists." -- "Like your ignorant, Socialist bretheren" -- "The Democratic Party of today is nothing more than a front group for Socialism." -- (IT NEVER ENDS WITH THIS GUY & HE TRIES TO ARGUE TWO OPPOSING VIEWPOINTS AT THE SAME TIME). When he makes a comment like -- "Did you actually graduate from school? Who the heck taught you how to write? Do you have a job?" and the person points out that they do indeed have a job then he (Burton)writes -- " MR: Did I call it! Did I! He did exactly what I said he would do! Liberals are sooooooooo predictable! Especially this one :). HAHAHAHA!!!! How utterly classic! OMG! A guy could set his watch by these buffoons! It is absolutely amazing how these people all think that they are better, smarter, and more financially well off than the next guy." -- I wonder if this brilliant writer could add a few more exclamation points to make sure his message is clear enough !!!!!!? -- Every statement Burton makes is packed with lies & straw-man arguments & it takes too much time to refute his ridiculous rantings, so
I'm signing off because I have to get ready for my socialist/communist/terrorist loving/troop hating/ youth council collective orientation. -- I guess this means he won because he'll continue to yammer long after I caught my flight to Moscow. "

mr wrote on Jan 10, 2008 10:57 AM:

" CJR, you stated "I've never intimated that I am better than anyone" and Burton and I, "loathe people with more smarts than them who happen to be better educated." Well, which is it guy? Please continue on....I just love hearing how much more educated you are than I am. You have no idea how much joy your slobbering, irrational rages bring me. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 10, 2008 10:37 AM:

" I don't loate you, CJR. I pity you. You're nothing more than another guy who needs to spout off about what he feels are the perceived injustices of the world. People like me look at people like you as ignorant and naive, which you are. I'm quite comfortable bantering back and forth with someone of your abilities, such as they are. As I said, it's all too easy. You're a socialist, and that's all you'll ever be. You can tell me and everyone else how much better educated you "think" you are and how much more well off financially you "think" you are. It really doesn't matter or change much, does it? You're a derigible full of your own self importance. In reality though, all you are is a typical liberal; another schmo who "needs" to tell everyone else how much smarter, better educated, more important, and financially superior he "thinks" he is. By all means, continue. As your icon, Mr. Marx, once said: From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need. I believe we've received your measure; it's lacking. "

CJR wrote on Jan 10, 2008 10:30 AM:

" Silvertip says -- " I guarantee you that you are in the vast minority. I thank God for that. " -- So, if you guarantee this statement, where's your proof? What evidense do you have? "

John Burton wrote on Jan 10, 2008 10:15 AM:

" studekid63: I would imagine (I believe I heard this commented on, but I can't remember where) the reason a separate systme was created was to decrease the amount of time it takes to get judicial approval. The amount of time it takes to put together a warrrant is significant. I'm guessing that separate judicial oversight was created so that law enforcement can act much more quickly to information. Either way, however, there is significant judicial oversight on every warrant that is written---as there should be. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 10, 2008 10:10 AM:

" CJR: You really are a cretinous little man. I never implied that "I felt" you were smarter than me or any other conservative. I "said" that is how "you" all perceive yourselves. I doubt sincerely you are more intelligent than me or any other conservative. You people are sooooo smug. You (and people like you) are nothing but a name calling, litte man who can't stand to be beaten at his own game. Like I have said countless other times: You pissants (liberal wackjobs) are great at dishing "it" (name calling & mud slinging) out, but you can't take "it" when it's thrown back at you. You're not really worth the time it takes me to type these posts, but I enjoy bantering with troglodites like you. It's all too easy. "

CJR wrote on Jan 10, 2008 9:23 AM:

" This is really funny, Burton who over several years accuses me or anyone who is oppositional to the Chimp Administration, or disgusted with his lame pronouncements, states that we are on welfare, living off others, etc. Then little dweeb mr suggests I live in my parents basement and questions if I even work. Then of course I'm supposedly mentally challenged (Con-fused suggests tard). Then I mention that I'm financially OK, college educated & do in fact have a working career, then it's I'm a snob & Burton says -- " these people all think that they are better, smarter, and more financially well off than the next guy." -- First I'm a welfare loafer, then I'm a limousine liberal. they argue 2 opposing inaccurate points, you want it both ways. Burton on many occasions states that Butte workers are ditch-diggers (I actually save the written record). I've stated it before, these guys are partisans who will say anything (usually false) to further their agenda, which is un-American & resembles the tactics of those who helped give rise to the McCarthy era. Sort of like are you still beating your wife? Fortunately for us, the American people are more aware this time & will not put up with the complete & utter lack of decency expressed by these types of people who so aptly portray the neocons of Lee Atwater & KKKarl Rove (dirty politics). Interesting how I'm now a professor. You shouldn't assume so much, mr, and maybe stick to what you really know, which isn't much. I've never intimated that I am better than anyone. Everyone life experiences are different & many are able to receive more resources that others, unfair, or not. Mr. Burton has often railed against Ostin Montana because he's a college student & works in social services, belittling him on EVEY occasion. Ostin is obviously significantly more intelligent than Con-fused who bandies his intellectual superiority, which others have mentioned comes from his Crispy Cream PhD. I think what it comes down to is that mr & burton have inferiority complexes & they loathe people with more smarts than them who happen to be better educated. Anti-intellectualism has been a trademark of many cons, and this is very sad. Maybe these guys could start a new Joseph McCarthy wing of the Republican Party, they'd feel better of themselves. "

Silvertip wrote on Jan 10, 2008 9:13 AM:

" CJR, You are unbelieveable. You and everyone like you hates Bush so bad that you can't think straight. You blame Bush and America for every possible problem in the world. Get over your hate. Whether or not you agree on reasons for going to Iraq, we are there and failure is not an option. You said our troops are terrorizing innocent Iraqi's....So, you are calling our troops terrorists. That is disgraceful and you should be ashamed. I invite you and Rosie O'Donnell to go live in France, where you can continue your 'enlightenment' and hatered of America. Free speech isn't free sir - we have that right by the blood and sweat of our military. You haven't earned the right to bash this country. You think 95% of the people are left of Burton..you live in a fantasy world and surround yourself with liberals. Go to any small town across Montana and spout your venom. I guarantee you that you are in the vast minority. I thank God for that. "

mr wrote on Jan 9, 2008 9:57 PM:

" Wow Burton, you did call it. I guess concerned and CJR blew the Democrats are the party of the people idea out of the water. I know I am certainly not as "financially well off" as the nutty professor and his idiot student. Man, you guys are snobs. "

studekid63 wrote on Jan 9, 2008 9:08 PM:

" John

If you truly believe these "sneak and peek" practices are fully under the oversight of fed lawyers etc then why create a seperate system with different oversight other than use the system that was already in place? A curious person would precieve this to be an attempt to muddy the water and use shortcuts. Exactly who is the oversight for these practices anyhow? It all smells fishy to me but I am just a dumb chubby white kid from West Silver St. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 9, 2008 7:14 PM:

" BTW: Being "left" (a democrat, a liberal, a progressive) very definitely makes one a socialist. The prinicples of liberalism are ROOTED in socialism. You people don't like being labelled what you are, that's why you're always coming up with new names to name yourselves. You don't like being called what you are. You are socialists. A socialist's aim is to promote government over the individual at every turn. Why? Because socialists (people like you) think the government (READ: YOU) is better at making decisions than the individual. It's as simple as that. Your entire aim is to take from one person and give it to another in the name of equality. That is the endgame. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 9, 2008 6:56 PM:

" studekid63: No, my friend, of course I don't think that such a plan was legitimate. Clearly, it was not. Now, as far as your other points. As with any investigative procedure, do you think it is embarked upon without judicial oversight? Do you? If you do, then you are wrong. You are also, apparently, operating under the assumption that the "government" is out there just "fishing" and picking people to investigate on a whim. This is something I frankly don't understand. What ever gave you the idea that a police officer (at any level) has the time to look into anyone just on a whim? Where did you come up with that? Have you ever written a search warrant? I'm guessing that you haven't. I've written dozens. In the event you didn't know, a "JUDGE" signs a search warrant. The fact that the "Patriot Act" allows for different judicial oversight regarding the review/granting of warrants is completely irrelevant. Completely! At that level, I have no doubt that attorney's from the Justice Department have been consulted prior to a warrant EVER being reviewed by a federal judge. If you think that a the FBI, or any other law enforcement agency, is going to be granted the authority to "sneak & peak" into anyone's house simply based on "hearsay," then you couldn't be more wrong. It just isn't so. As far as the FBI looking into library info. goes, I could care less. I really could care less. I really care. When one applies for "credit," one is placed under far for investigative scrutiny than that. For all I know a library card (and all the records pertaining to it) issued by a Public Library might be public information anyway. I honestly don't know. In the event that that information isn't, however, I could care less if the government might have come across my name during a search of a data base which provided the names of individuals who checked out a particular type of literature. Just because I'm a guy who might have checked out a book doesn't mean I'm going to be included as part of an investigation. It just doesn't work that way. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 9, 2008 6:24 PM:

" MR: Did I call it! Did I! He did exactly what I said he would do! Liberals are sooooooooo predictable! Especially this one :). HAHAHAHA!!!! How utterly classic! OMG! A guy could set his watch by these buffoons! It is absolutely amazing how these people all think that they are better, smarter, and more financially well off than the next guy. Amazing! When I butt up against you, Tard, I always find myself needing to take a bath to wash off all the guano that ends up sticking to me. The day a schmo like you ends up being a match for me or anyone else who possesses a modicum of common sense will be the first. You are such a predictable drip. HAHAHAHA! I don't know whose more entertaining, you or concerned. :))) "

John Burton wrote on Jan 9, 2008 5:25 PM:

" MR: Now you've done it! Now CJR's going to ramble on about how much money he makes; how many houses he owns; and how he did it all on his own (so to speak) and on his parent's (Ooops! I mean his own) dime! From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need. Like any true socialist, CJR needs more than he has the ability to produce. "

CJR wrote on Jan 9, 2008 5:18 PM:

" Stop being a silly doofus, mr. Your personal insults are like feathers rubbing on sandpaper. No, I don't live in a basement I own my home (paid off), I have a vacation home and I own 20% of 2 apartment houses containing 60 units. Actually my father died recently & I'm missing him very much. My folks provided a wonderful home to me & others who needed their help over the years & that has provided me a role-model base for being a giving person, not a leach on society that you & cons like Burton are. I am confident that I have returned more to my community than you two will ever provide. I'm sure I probably pay way more in taxes than either of you goons do.
I'm not overly concerned about my financial health, but do fret over my adult children & their kids financial futures. I knew mentioning that I work in higher ed would get the response from Burton that it did, and I'm proud that I am a liberal & I am more left in my thinking than two useless, & ignorant cons. I've never attempted to portray myself as any better than the man in the street and any suggestion that I am more "nuanced" than the average person is just projection on Crispy's part. Being left of Burton is probably a position that 95% of Americans can claim, and being left doesn't make one a communist, socialist, terrorist or any other label Burton would hang on me. God, man you live in utter fear of liberals & that's funny because I am of the ilk that I DO care about the well-being of my fellow citizens. You guys keep projecting your inner anxieties & lack of self-esteem on anyone who has the temerity to disagree with you. You are very immature and frightened cons. mr when you say I'll see the light, I'd say you live in darkness and the people who reject your dark views of humanity are increasing in numbers daily. Just check the recent presidential primaries, Democrats & Independents are flocking to the polls to express their utter revulsion of the neocons & the Chimp. Burton just stews in his own juices when he butts up against people that are brighter, more educated and financially better off than he is. He's sunk lower with every post. Actually, the liberal agenda has delivered benefits to American society & that has made our country the greatest nation in the history of mankind & it's boobs like you two that are threats to our security. Like I've mentioned before the current crop of neocons are slipping into the trash-heap. "

studekid63 wrote on Jan 9, 2008 5:10 PM:

" John Burton

Let us repair to the story that started this series of personal attacks. Do you believe that the aforementioned plan by Hoover was legitimate? A simple yes/no will suffice. I also believe my right and freedoms have been diminished by the Bush administration. The Patriot Act's "Sneak and Peak" provision allows the feds to come into your home, search your residence, and leave without telling you for up to six months. It has expanded the government’s powers under the Federal Intelligence Surveillance Act to get warrants for wiretaps from special courts, not subject to the same oversight as typical courts. Another provision allowed the FBI to obtain library records from librarians, who had to keep their mouths shut about confrontations with officials. Within months of 9/11, law enforcers had visited nearly 10 percent of America’s libraries "seeking September 11-related info". and this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/09/AR2007070902065.html
The thought of ANYONE marching through my house without probable cause is an afront to the Constitution. When you set the bar so low for "cause" there will be abuse. For example...Why yes Agent Scully, I did see my neighbor talking to a group of Middle Easterners at the university yesterday, I think you should go into his house this weekend and see if you can scare up something! Are we so frightened by terrorist plots that we so easily give up our freedoms? I for one am not. If Bush and his cadre are so concerned about national security, why do they play politics with border policy. The gane should be played according to the Constitution, not the whims of the Village Idiot from Texas.

"

mr wrote on Jan 9, 2008 4:12 PM:

" CJR, you "actually DO work for a living," and you are still a liberal. I guess our last hope for you is when you move out of your parents basement you will see the light. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 9, 2008 2:36 PM:

" Spoken like a true socialist, CJR. The fact that you work in higher education is not a shock. You clearly believe yourself to be more nuanced and intelligent in your thinking than the average man. The fact of the matter is that YOU are a leftist. You don't like being labelled as such because leftists, much like their socialist ideology are bereft of a record of success. Socialism (espoused by leftists) has never succeeded anywhere it has been instituted. You are nothing more than an apologist for a failed ideology. You're ignorant, naive, and narcissistic. Furthermore, neither you nor your left wing wackjob friends and/or political leaders are supportive of the men and women in the military. Your words demean both them and their sacrifices. The reason you liberals are so negative is because all you know is failure. Your view of the world encompasses the equitable distribution of misery, not happiness or success. What are we doing in Iraq? Fighting a war against Islamic terrorists. Why are we there? To win the war against Islamic terrorists/terrorism; and, hopefully along the way, assist the Iraqis install a democratic form of government which they can sustain without our assistance. When will we win? I have no idea. Wars aren't won by meeting deadlines; they are won by meeting objectives. Just because an idiot liberal (you) says the objective isn't clearly stated, doesn't mean there isn't one. The only way we are going to lose this war is by leaving too early---before the objective(s) have been met. This, of course, is precisely what you liberals want. All you care about is being able to ascribe blame to others for decisions made by others. Liberals are loathe to make decisions; that would require them to be accountable for the possibility of negative consequences. Liberals can't accept responsibility for negative consequences because doing so might cause them to lose political power, and political power---the ability to dictate to others how they should live and think---is all a liberal cares about. You are what you are, CJR. you're a leftist who believes in a failed ideology. Have fun with all the professors of the soft sciences you liberal's hang out with. People like Robert Ray and Ward Churchill. About the only thing you people are capbable of producing is a headache. "

CJR wrote on Jan 9, 2008 1:44 PM:

" mr stated -- "Even CJR has disappeared with embarrassment." Not really. I'm only embarrassed that their are cons that emulate the McCarthy era. I actually DO work for a living & have just returned from a flight. I usually bring my laptop with me, but decided I was tired of lugging it around (the Dell Inspiron-9100 is a slug & I'm sorry I bought it), this time I brought my CINGULAR 8525 & tried to post & couldn't, even though I could read the TMS. Getting praise from mr for Burton is like being endorsed by Joseph McCarthy. Mr. Burton in his unending mission to frame what is liberalism & what liberals stand for is laughable, juvenile, & totally off. Suffice it to say, he believes that if he posts the most & personally attacks the most he's the winner. He tries to be clever in his insults, but only demonstrates his juvenile mentality & to top it off claims mental superiority by putting down Concerned. He lives on the fringe & he's got to be a bit disturbed & I'm tired of his lame defense of the indefensible & his 24/7 attacks on liberalism. I proudly embrace liberal ideals & am happy to share them, but this con (Burton) still hasn't yet even attempted to disclose what we're doing in Iraq, or why we are there. I'm moving on & it's nice to know that a large majority of the Country is with me. I work in higher education & it's gratifying to know that almost all the people I interact with on a daily basis are infinitely smarter & more decent people than Con-fused Burton, & this includes a wide spectrum of people with differing political beliefs. I know many thoughtful and principled conservatives, who I respect. I just don't know that many neocons ... they're so yesterday, & their time is winding down just like Chimp Bush's bloody & disgraceful administration. The end is nearer for the neocons every day & this Liberal finds that liberating! "

John Burton wrote on Jan 9, 2008 1:27 PM:

" It is a forum, Ostin. People are free to engage each other as they see fit. As I recall, you've engaged in a fair piece of "useless squabbling" yourself. I have absolutely no problem with how anyone chooses to address me. Yourself included. The tenor of the argument doesn't diminish either the argument or the process. This isn't an erudite forum; it is the webpage of a local newspaper. If you want to engage in what you would call civilized debate, then join a debate club. Who the Hades are you to tell everyone that not everything is a partisan issue? I quote: "...and not everything is a partisan issue as most of you believe." I don't agree with nearly anything you say; however, that being said, you are entitled to your opinions, and the route(s) you choose to arrive at them. This forum doesn't need a toastmaster. "

ostinmontana wrote on Jan 9, 2008 12:25 PM:

" The way most of you people use this forum is appalling. It reads more like a script from CHILDREN in a playground taunting each other than any type of erudite forum where issues are discussed rationally between adults. Unfortunately, the original story seems to be lost in all your useless squabbling. What is sad is that our country (both Dems and Repubs--and not everything is a partisan issue as most of you seem to believe) has used fear (an irrational emotion) to legislate and garner votes for decades and we continue to do such. It would be nice if McCarthy demagoguery died in the 1950s--but it lives on today on both sides of the aisle. And America, as a whole, is much worse for it. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 9, 2008 10:57 AM:

" Concerned: If you are saying that many of the British North American colonies that eventually formed the United States of America were settled in the seventeenth century by men and women, who, in the face of European persecution, refused to compromise passionately held religious convictions and fled Europe, then I will agree with you. What the above has to do with anything I posted is beyond me. I guess only your rambling mind would know that. Your statement which suggests we (the United States) invaded (you used the word "attacked") Iraq due to religious differences between our two countries, is the definition of ignorance. People like you are the reason I say that democrats/liberals/progressives/socialists (pick any term you like, they all share the same ideology & mentality) are ignorant and naive. You most definitely embody both those qualities. "

mr wrote on Jan 9, 2008 10:35 AM:

" Concerned, you are the perfect spokesman for liberals everywhere. You can't make a legitimate argument, so you start making stuff up. Even CJR has disappeared with embarrassment. Too bad CJR doesn't realize he is just as irrational. Keep at them Burton! "

John Burton wrote on Jan 9, 2008 8:40 AM:

" Go to a foreign country?! Go into someone's home in Butte?! What?! And talk what way? Ohhh! Do you mean properly, or itelligently? From what I can see, you, Mr. Mensa, wouldn't be able to utter a proper sentence, let alone an itelligible one. Apparently Mensa lowered its standards when you were allowed to become a member. It would seem a rudimentary knowledge of the Revolutionary War isn't a requirement for admission into "your" chapter of Mensa. I also think that the closest you've ever been to a book is when you walked past the library. Tell me when it was that our country escaped from the tyranny of the church? I must have missed that part of American history. I love talking to liberals like you! You are the embodiment of liberalism! As Jeff Foxworthy would say, "Here's your sign!" "

John Burton wrote on Jan 8, 2008 10:15 PM:

" Concerned: Tell me. Which city is the most expensive for you to live in? I'm thinking it must be Hawaii, right? I mean, shoot howdy! It must cost an arm and a leg to get a mobile home across the ocean! Purty as heck, but 'spensive, huh? Yer loaded, though. I'm thankin' you probably eat bologna 3-4 times a week, huh! Hooo Eeee! That is some fancy livin', partner! I am jealous. "

concerned wrote on Jan 8, 2008 10:04 PM:

" MR. Burton -Please go to a foriegn country and talk the way you do on these post. Please go into someones home here and talk the way you do. I guantee you would not last long. Our country is founded on freedom of religion- we escaped from tyranny of the church that tried to control our believes. We have no right to attack anyone or any nation on thier relious beliefs. Get a grip- the old Christain Crusaders are gone and were wrong then as they are now. The old my God is the only God is the cause of all disputs. Hopefully you have no children or wife to abuse.To give respect to those who differ with your believe is the key to a harmonaious life. I bet it is a blast at your house.
"

John Burton wrote on Jan 8, 2008 9:59 PM:

" A member of Mensa...HAHAHAHA!@!!!

With a 131 I.Q....HAAAAA!!!!!

LMFAO!!!!!!

HAHAHAHA!!!!!!

"

John Burton wrote on Jan 8, 2008 9:56 PM:

" Concerned: Now you need to tell me how smart you are, and how many homes you have? :)) Isn't that predictable. Tell me, were you wearing your Mensa medallion when you mispelled consequence? The next time you go to the monthly Mensa meeting, try asking one of your more erudite members to proof read anything you happen to write. Took the online I.Q. test did you? Tell me. Did Sally Struthers write you a letter back informing you that you had been accepted to television repair school? HAHAHAHA A 131 I.Q....HAAAA!!! Partner, you couldn't count to 131 if you started from 100. You are too much! I tell you what. From now on, I won't write compound sentences or use words with more than two syllables. Concerned am Smart! BUrToN aM dUmB! ConcerNed take test. It tell hIm him am SmaRt. Concerned tell Burton him dumb. Burton aM bully! ConcerNed doNt liKe Burton. ConceRned aM nOt good Talker. BurtoN am buLLy. ConcErNed no liKe buLLiey's. bullIeY's scARe Concerned. ConcERned am Smart. Him moM teLL hiM sO. "

tammybaker1970 wrote on Jan 8, 2008 9:29 PM:

" Concerned....a member of Mensa? Thanks I havn't laughed that hard in years. "

concerned wrote on Jan 8, 2008 8:50 PM:

" Mr. Burton, I do not live in Butte. I have homes in Seattle WA,Genesee Idaho,Tucson AZ and Honolulu HI. I bought all this on my own dime so to speak. No one gave it to me, I earned evey dime. It must be hard for you on a lowly cops wage to have the things you aspire to have. You, sir, are a follower of the good old Nazi party.The lack of any real intellect shows in your school yard bully tactics. And, by the way, I am a member of Mensa with an IQ of 131. As far as the "average policeman" they are equal to the average criminal intelligence which is not too bright. There is a fine line between the two-takes one to know one. Burton face it -you are absolutely no one of any consquience. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 8, 2008 7:30 PM:

" Now you're concerned with the attitudes of Muslim Countries? HAHAHAHA! Which one? Yeah, I'm sure GWB makes his policy based on what other countries think about us. Good thinkin' there, Pard. I tell you what, why don't we find out if they like chocolate or vanilla ice cream as well. We'll throw that into foreign policy hopper as well. Yeah, we'ver really wronged those enemy combatants held in Guantanamo. Whoo boy! We played loud music and took pictures! The horror! The shame! What's do-gooder liberal to do? How can an American in Paris hold his head high? Sniff. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 8, 2008 7:21 PM:

" Concerned: What an apt name/handle for you, no? Were I you, I'd be concerned about my inability to communitcate in an intelligent manner as well. Now, were I ever to have the misfortune of issuing you a ticket, you wouldn't be able to understand what it is that I might write---at least not without someone else's help. What is it that I'd be plugging into "any" search engine anyway? A score of 21-22 for what? I guess "only the shadow knows," huh? It also appears that the only thing "arrested" about you is your intellectual development. The last time I held a conversation with someone whose inability to express themselves in an articulate manner matched your level of incompetence, I was saying goo-goo, gaa-gaa and playing peek-a-boo behind my right hand. I'm also of the opinion that were breathing not an autonomic function, you would asphyxiate. I'm equally sure that your intelligence is mated to the temperature of the environment you find yourself in. That being the case, I guess that means your measurable I.Q. hit the average mark (100) only once in Butte's recorded meteorological history. At least you were "almost" on par with the average, but slightly more intelligent than normal, policeman. Right? Equally unfortunate for you, though, is that winter is upon us. As such, your level of intelligence must now hover somewhere around the point which would produce a state of intellectual catatonia. I'll stop now. It's really not fair to make fun of someone who can't read without the benefit of pictures. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 8, 2008 6:28 PM:

" What an incredible stroke you are. You quote a non-partisan study (READ: liberal study) which makes idiotic allegagtions based on liberal points of view. Then, you have the audacity to try and use the predetermined conclusions as the premise to your idiotic point of view that Bush's presidency has caused a loss of prestige...with social democracies, no less. If you were more transparent in your attempt to use your favorite form of debate (the circular argument, supported by its partner, circular logic), you'd be a pane of glass. When the tooth fairy doesn't leave you 50 cents for your tooth, make sure to blame GWB for that too. "

concerned wrote on Jan 8, 2008 6:19 PM:

" The average score Nationally for Police officers is 21 to 22,the equivalent of 104 IQ,just a little above average. Well, Mr. Burton does seem to bare this out. Burton you can type this in your search engine and find the truth to my statement. Let's just be thankful that he left Butte for California and we don't have to have him in any of our towns. Can you imagin the horror of being pulled over by him? You would be arrested as a commie spy! "

John Burton wrote on Jan 8, 2008 6:08 PM:

" A beefed up Peace Corp to send to in order to assist the areas ravaged by Hurricane Katrina? HAAAA!!! You go girl. You are such a bleeding heart liberal! HAAAA!!! I tell you what. Why don't we just do this instead. We'll have the government sponsor a summer camp for all the people you feel GWB has slighted and we'll have the Prez appoint you as the "camp social director." As your first order of business, you can direct a campfire sing along. Everyone can hold hand, sing Koom-Bye-Ya, eat twinkies and drink Coca-Cola. After that, we should see about having the Prez see about getting you nominated to be the next poet laureate, then you could put all this wonderful hyperbole into published print. I think, however, that a nice, warm cabin on Walden Pond is more your style. It's about as realistic as anything you say. "

CJR wrote on Jan 8, 2008 5:53 PM:

" The latest Gallup Poll suggests that only 40 percent of Americans feel the country or the world is safer as the result of our actions on Iraq.
According to ABC News, 10 out of 16 countries questioned in an annual survey on global attitudes have given the United States a less than 50 percent approval rating, with public opinion in Muslim countries and in Europe particularly critical.
How could American prestige not take a global beating given certain realities? Every reason and justification the administration has provided for invading and occupying Iraq has proved to be false.
The current justification de jour -- to bring democracy to Iraq -- remains more a policy concept beholden within the White House than a belief emblazoned on the hearts of Iraqis.
How do we reclaim that which I believe we've lost?
We must address the U.S. torture policy authentically. There is simply no excuse for what happened, given the documents that our government has released.
The voracity with which talk radio, cable television and members of Congress wrongly attacked Illinois Sen. Richard Durbin for suggesting that what went on at Guantanamo Bay was reminiscent of some of the most sadistic regimes in history, must now be matched to uncover the truth.
AND FOR THE LAST TIME, CRISPY, WHAT CONSTITUTES WINNING? "

CJR wrote on Jan 8, 2008 5:37 PM:

" Just think of all the good that could have been accomplished right after September 11th. -- There was goodwill and sympathy around the world felt towards the US. Everyone in the country was squarely and solidly wanting to pull together and be united. Volunteers would have signed up for anything. Many people drove from far away just to come to help and be involved. Donations flooded in from everywhere. Initiatives, for anything, could have been easily passed and accepted: safety, education reform, conservation, red cross, USO. -- Imagine a peace corps so strong that when Katrina hit, teams could have been coordinated and dispatched to rescue and relocate people, halt the damage and begin rebuilding. -- Instead look at what our government did do with all this goodwill. -- It passed the patriot act, created the department of homeland security, created a multicolored terror alert, strip searches at airports, detention centers for undesirables. -- They have encouraged fear, distrust, suspicion and terror. -- All the while no-bid contracts have been handed out like candy to cronies. They have lined their pockets with gold stolen from the treasury, breaking the backs and kind hearts of the people of the United States. Like crazed archers that wound everyone, they have sent our honored sons and daughters to terrorize other people in their countries as vengeance. -- They have created concentration camps, ignored our justice system, claimed authority not their own and used deceit to illicit still more power. They have divided us and made us mistrust one another. Instead of reaching out, with an olive branch, to allies and forming strong alliances, with new friends, around the world, based on mutual trust, leading through strength of character, they have instead made other countries wary of this dangerous monster in its midst, which could turn and attack them at any moment. -- They have mortgaged our economy and our goodwill around the world to fund their quest for riches and glory. "

CJR wrote on Jan 8, 2008 5:31 PM:

" US sufffers decline in prestige --By Stephen Fidler in London -- Published: September 12 2007 20:55 | Last updated: September 12 2007 20:55 --The US has suffered a significant loss of power and prestige around the world in the years since George W. Bush came to power, limiting its ability to influence international crises, an annual survey from a well regarded British security think-tank concluded on Tuesday. -- The 2007 Strategic Survey of the non-partisan International Institute for Strategic Studies picked the decline of US authority as one of the most important security developments of the past year – but suggested the fading of American prestige began earlier, largely due to its failings in Iraq. --John Chipman, the institute’s director-general, said the “authority, prestige and reputation of the US is not what it might have been four or five years ago”. The deter¬ioration of American power had led to a “non-polar” world in which other actors, such as Russia, had been able to assert themselves. --The report says the US failure in Iraq had meant the Bush administration suffered from a much-reduced ability to hold sway in both domestic and international affairs. This was evident, it says, from the president’s failure to push through a new immigration bill, to the scant regard paid to US efforts to influence Israeli-Palestinian developments and Mr Bush’s sudden acceptance of the need for action on climate change. -- But a more fundamental loss of clout occurred at a strategic level. “It was evident that exercise of military power – in which, on paper, America dominated the world – had not secured its goal,” the survey says. The failings in Iraq created a sense around the world of American power “diminished and demystified”, with adversaries believing they will prevail if they manage to draw the US into a prolonged engagement. --In the Middle East, the survey says, the loss of US influence encouraged some countries – notably Iran – to flex their muscles in the region; it provided ammunition for radical groups seeking to discredit the leaders of countries maintaining solid links with the US; and it encouraged other countries to hedge their diplomatic relations with the US by strengthening their links with other regional powers. -- Washington’s ability to act as an honest broker in the world had declined; and Iraq had meant the US had failed to pay as much attention as it should have to other parts of the world. -- The report concludes that the “the restoration of American strategic authority seemed bound to take much longer than the mere installation of a new president”. --Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2007 "

dameon wrote on Jan 8, 2008 5:15 PM:

" wow.... John Burton is horrible at proving a valid point. Beyond the ac hoc agruments i don't see much substance to the points he makes. and John I think you should check out bill 1955 that just passed the house and is now being introduced to the senate if you don't believe our liberties are being infringed upon. yes i'm sure they're aren't many people who are having issues with their civil rights, but i doubt that any of the news media would stand up and tell us who is. i think it's prefectly healthy, and should even be encouraged to keep a close watch on the fedral government as to where thier role in our lives. Beyond that i don't see why we feel the urge to police the world, we could be using that money at home. Now if you are to be mentioning Sarkozy, look at how well he is being recieved by his own country. Also i would like to see a clear example on how we're "winning" right now, the entire south of iraq is being controled by the sheite muslums, the ones we're trying to battle, yet the death toll has dropped significantly there, and besides what's wrong with looking good in the world view...should we ever need real help, its always nice to have a few friends behind you. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 8, 2008 4:18 PM:

" Ooooh! Did I hurt your wittle feewings? Go cry a river little man. Typical moronic liberal. Good at picking arguments, just not very adroit at being able to finish them. Now your questions are just rhetorical? I see. You get embroiled in an argument wherein you can't defend your position(s), so you change the context of the argument in order to avoid the pitfalls of the garbage you blather. How quaint. Lost prestige in the world? With whom? Do you mean with France? Hmmmm...Seems to me that their newly elected Prime Minister (Sarkozy) is a conservative (and a friend to the U.S.) who replaced the Socialist, Chirac. Or do you mean Germany? No...that can't be right, can it. Germany's new prime minister (Merkel), a conservative, who replaced a socialist (Schroder) in Western Europe. Huh...confusing. You and the rest of your so-called leaders are like a bunch of teenage girls; you're all worried about how you (we) look to people (countries) who weren't supportive of us to begin with. Apparantly the coalition of the willing must be working well. Last time I checked, Tard, we seem to be winning. I think the hardest thing on you, Tard, was the third grade. So, with that in mind, I think it would be best to argue with someone at that level as it would appear that you're not quite up to mine. "

CJR wrote on Jan 8, 2008 1:39 PM:

" Hey Burton do you have a problem with women, little girls, little boys? You seem to throw in reference to such in many of your comments --"Tard. They continually hang you, and the rest of your liberal ladies up." --"You're a little girl in an adult world. Go hide behind your mother's skirt." -- "Go hide behind your mother's skirt, little boy." -- Can't you engage in any adult conversation? Why do you have such a chip on your shoulder? Why are you so mean-spirited calling people names non-stop? How can you champion the likes of Chimp Bush & the current Republican Party in the manner that you do? Do you really believe? Anyway don't answer my questions they're just rhetorical. You're just a seriously delusional, scary neocon who hasn't quite grasped the mounting evidence that you & your great illustrious Party is caving in with its corruption & total failures. And you really believe that the US hasn't lost prestige in the world? So how's that coalition of the willing turning out for you guys? Good luck spinning the demise of the neocons, it should keep you spewing for the next decade, doofus. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 8, 2008 11:33 AM:

" I didn't claim to answer your allegations, I did answer them. You don't like the facts, Tard. They continually hang you, and the rest of your liberal ladies up. You have allegations, nothing more. You people always have allegations. You allege that Sen. Sununu won his Senate seat via election fraud, yet his election wasn't set aside. Why is that? Because it couln't be proved, that's why. It's part of the public record. I provided you with two (2) examples of Democrats who demonize the U.S. military in general, and solidiers specifically. This is a matter of public record, Tard. There is also a veritable PLETHORA of information on any search engine you choose to use which tells a reader that the Democrat/Socialist Party and its leaders made statements which were negative about the progress of the war. YOU PEOPLE AND YOUR PARTY have given a boost to the morale to the enemy with your ongoing attacks on the military. You claim that our civil liberties have been infringed upon? Name one. Name a U.S. citizen whose rights have been abrogated? Name one? Name an action, Tard, that you can't perform today that you couldn't perform before the Patriot Act (which all your liberal icons signed off on) was signed into law. You can't name a liberty which we all possess which has been infringed upon because there isn't one that has been infringed upon. You put lips to lies, and because of your staggering ignorance, believe them because you're not intelligent enough to see the forest through the trees. You're a poster child for left wing wackjobs and you don't like being labeled as such. You don't like being labeled what you are. You're a socialist and your party espouses Socialism. I'll say it again: You and people like you don't like being called what you are, socialists. You and people like you are pathetic. I answered every allegation you made---and that's all they are: allegations. There isn't a single hateful item in my speech. You just don't like being called what you are: a cowardly liberal. A "stroke" like you can sling a ton of mud, but you can't take it when it's flung back at you. Why? Because you're a fraud, a phony, and a coward. I say it again, Tard. Leave the decision making to adults. You're a little girl in an adult world. Go hide behind your mother's skirt. "

CJR wrote on Jan 8, 2008 8:53 AM:

" Burton in his childish & vicious personal attacks, gets his glee from running down others, i.e., "Did you actually graduate from school? Who the heck taught you how to write? Do you have a job?" & "Go hide behind your mother's skirt, little boy." This from a guy who writes -- "The Democratic Party of today allows the demonization of American soldiers by the likes of Pelosi, Reid, Kerry, Kennedy, et al. The Democratic Party "wants" the war to go poorly---WANTS AMERICA TO LOSE THE WAR." Mr. Burton's emotional maturity is south of a 5th graders. He claims he answers questions, when in fact he continuously misdirects the conversation. The topic of the post is actually to raise the issue of how fear-mongering has imperiled our Country -- " Hoover’s plan serves to remind us of how fragile our civil liberties are. They can be defended only so long as we still have them. For a time there, we were in danger of losing them completely. Yes, there was a threat from within — and it came from the likes of McCarthy and Hoover and those who would have sacrificed our civil liberties in the name of defending America. The article brings out the worst in some people as they dive head-first into the muck & subscribe to fear-mongering & hate speech to drive their partisan agenda. People like Burton are the types who gave McCarthyism its legs. Unfortunately, for Burton the scary gun-toting cop from northern California, leaves a written record of his slimy & pathetic politics of hate all over the pages for us to review while he attempts to disavow his own statements. I would classify the weasel with the Crispy Cream PhD as a troll. He'd counter that he's a guest lecturer.

"

John Burton wrote on Jan 7, 2008 7:19 PM:

" Concerned: Did you actually graduate from school? Who the heck taught you how to write? Do you have a job? Are you required to communicate in writing? How often? In what context? To whom? Your inability to articulate your point of view tells me all I need to know. You're just not a very bright guy. Please feel free to respond. I'm dying for another opportunity to try to decipher what it is that you're trying to say. You, my friend, are a poster child for illiteracy. Answer me this: How many letters are in the English alphabet? How many are vowels? Good gravy, man! I've dealt with illegal aliens who possess a better grasp of the Queen's English than you. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 7, 2008 7:08 PM:

" Apparently, CJR, you lack the ability to actually defend a position. Like your ignorant, Socialist bretheren, you seem to believe that the seriousness of an allegation is more important than its actual substance. When you can actually tell me where, when & in what context the Constitution was suspended, I'll be happy to prove you wrong yet again. When you can actually tell me where election fraud was committed---as opposed to your simply saying it was committed---I'll do the same. That you believe that the war was unnecessary is an opinion you're entitled to. When you are elected President, you will be able to determine what methods can & will be employed to extract information from those who mean to do us harm. From my point of view, however, I'm guessing that a someone like you would run from any actual decision making. You're someone who lacks the ability to make decisions for yourself, that's why you want the government to do it for you. Basically, you're a coward at heart. You, like your party, don't have an answer to anything because you, like your party, only know how to criticize the efforts of others. You people don't solve problems; you create and perpetuate them. Go hide behind your mother's skirt, little boy. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 7, 2008 6:53 PM:

" Concerned: I honestly can't make heads or tails about what you are talking about. It is so poorly written that I don't understand what point it is that you're trying to make. As far as wiretaps are concerned, concerned, you quite clearly don't understand the process that goes into obtaining one. Should you chose to actually make a comment which can be understood, please let me know. "

CJR wrote on Jan 7, 2008 5:52 PM:

" Yea those Republicans are sure loyal & honest .. unless it's convenient for them to suspend our constitution, commit atrocities, conduct torture & election fraud, and declare unnecessary war. The neocons like Burton are un-American, with the blood of innocents on their hands. They would sacrifice our entire nation to push their partisan agenda. When it's stated in the oath to protect the constitution from our enemies foreign & domestic, it's the Burton's of the country we need to repulse. "

concerned wrote on Jan 7, 2008 5:40 PM:

" Mr Burton let me tell you a story-a true story about your wonderful Republician Party. I Bush 1's years in office the GI bill that was always a veterns right after their years of service was changed to having to pay for this benefit-when did it have to be paid? During Boot Camp along with also paying for their uniforms-how much was it? In 2000 it was $1200.00 Now add that to all the other papers that are pushed at them and the little bit they are making a lot choose not to spend that $1200.00 on the benefit which they really did not understand. Then they are over in the Gulf bombing the ememy,come home get out of the service apply for unemployment-government takes 3 months to file dd214 so no pay, no w2 came for 2004,still don't have it in 2007- state says that the months you waited for now have to be repaid so now you are $4200.00 in debt but still you get your check for after that time. This very true story is how the Great Republician Government treats our Troops. But then you say are rights have not been touched-how about illegal wire taps? Oh ! Thats right you are in law enforcement-you know all to well how to take peoples rights away. Can you smell the bacon ?? "

John Burton wrote on Jan 7, 2008 1:49 PM:

" “May we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion," Dwight D. Eisenhower. You and your party are neither loyal nor honest, CJR. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 7, 2008 1:17 PM:

" I provided you with facts to every single question you posited, Tard. I haven't evaded a single question. If Sen. Sununu's victory was fraudulent, then why wasn't it set aside? Why? BECAUSE THERE IS NO FACTUAL EVIDENCE THAT IT HAD ANY OUTCOME ON THE ELECTION, THAT'S WHY. Again, your agenda is simply to state allegations. Just stating something doesn't make it true. I have given retorts to every single ridiculous allegation you have made. THE ONLY PERSON HERE WHO LACK INTEGRITY---TO SAY NOTHING OF INTELLIGENCE---IS YOU. I'm not accusing you and the Democrats of wanting to lose the war; I'm stating it as a fact. You don't want this country to win. It is quite obvious. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 7, 2008 1:01 PM:

" A quote by Sen. Harry Reid on April 19, 2007: "The war is lost." Rep. John Murtha, during an interview with Fox News reporter Chris Matthews, accused the Marines involved in the incident at Haditha (November 19, 2006) of murdering innocent Iraqi civilians, but did so even though he hadn’t read the report but had learned about its findings from military commanders and other sources. Worse yet, he did so before an investigation into the incident was even begun! And, I might add, the defamation lawsuit lodged against him by one of the soldiers he accused is being allowed to continue after having been refused to be dismissed. Should I even mention the unproved statements made by John Kerry in his testimony before Congress in 1971? Your party---your ideology---is INVESTED in this country's failure. Your party wants this country to lose the war. You say I can't give you an example of Socialists making disparaging comments about the job the military is doing, or about the men & women in uniform? I just gave you an example of each. Where is the straw man argument there, Tard? The people who are disrespectful toward the men and women in uniform are you and your party. Your party WANTS THE U.S. MILITARY TO FAIL. Why? All for the sake of gaining power. The people who are disrespectful and demeaning are you and your party. Like I said, Tard: Never let the facts get in the way of a good story. "

CJR wrote on Jan 7, 2008 12:59 PM:

" You keep asking questions Mr. Burton, but you never provide an honest answer to one posed to you. How come? By just repeating over & over again that members of the Democratic Party are socialists is just lame & actually contrary to having dialogue. We are socialists because YOU say we are. How convenient of you to duck & spin when you get a response to your question. For example -- "Tobin and state official Chuck McGee were later convicted of charges related to the ploy, which helped John Sunnunu win a 19,000-vote victory to the Senate over Democratic Gov. Jeanne Shaheen. -- Can"t get any more direct than that. Simply by avoiding factual evidence, your ploy is to keep accusing the other person of lieing, that's so juvenile, even in grade school debate 5th graders are taught that this tactic is unfair & misleading. Mr. Burton you are a disgrace & clown & you will say ANYTHING to make a partisan point, in the most cowardly way like accusing Democrats of wanting us to lose the war. You have no courage, dignity or integrity. I used to think you were just a disturbed and confused con, but now I think your really just a n evil, bad person.
"

John Burton wrote on Jan 7, 2008 12:05 PM:

" No, CJR, I didn't ignore it. I addressed it. If there was voter fraud, then why wasn't the vote recast in that area? Why weren't the results set aside? Why? Why? Why? Again, you Socialists never let the fact get in your way. Your whole point in political life is to repeat untruths over and over again in the hope that eventually the ignorant and naieve (Democrats) will believe them. "

CJR wrote on Jan 7, 2008 10:48 AM:

" Actually I DID provide one example, you just chose to ignore it, because it's an inconvenient truth. No one will ever accuse Mr. Burton of letting a FACT get in the way. If it makes you feel better to point out previous transgressions on the part of the Democratic Party, so be it. The truth will set you free. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 7, 2008 10:39 AM:

" Yes, CJR, facts are facts. And these are the facts: In the 2.7 trillion dollar budget proposed by the Bush Administration for 2006, $419.3 billion (15.5%) was allocated for the Department of Defense. $628 billion (23.3%) was allocated for the Department of Health and Human Services (medicaid & medicare). Most of the HHS budget is consumed by mandatory programs, particularly Medicaid and Medicare, which serve the elderly, disabled and the poor. Administration officials now project the Medicare prescription drug benefit will cost $395 billion during the first five years, or nearly double the original estimate of $400 billion over a decade. Most of the HHS budget is consumed by mandatory programs, particularly Medicaid and Medicare, which serve the elderly, disabled and the poor. Administration officials now project the Medicare prescription drug benefit will cost $395 billion during the first five years, or nearly double the original estimate of $400 billion over a decade. The above information was taken from the Washington Post. As is your usual, CJR, you never let the facts get in the way of a good story. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 7, 2008 10:16 AM:

" No, CJR, that is not an example. Again, my conspiratorial Socialist friend, just saying a thing does not make the thing true. If there was evidence of VOTER FRAUD then it would have been proved. You are a TYPICAL liberal. You love to call others names, but can't take it when you're called names yourselves. You have the gall to say Conservatives play dirty? Puuuuhlease! How many DEAD people have voted in Chicago for the Socialist/Democrat Party over the years? How many in New York? If I call you a pathetic schnook, I'd be insulting a schnook. There isn't a single instance of provable voter fraud, not one. As usual, when a Socialist can't win, he tells untruths; and, if he tells them often enough, they must be true. You go, Girl. "

CJR wrote on Jan 7, 2008 9:39 AM:

" I’ll take the bait Mr. Burton. Who previously posted “What voter fraud? Name the place where it took place.” -- Here’s just one example, and there are many, many more like the voter caging & suppression efforts in places like New Mexico, or the missing 10,000 ballots from Dade County (2000), or the over votes in Ohio (2004). There are so many instances where election fraud took place; it’s a veritable mine-field. -- What does it take to win the New Hampshire primary — dirty tricks or retail politics? -- Stick to good old-fashioned politicking, says disgraced former GOP consultant Allen Raymond. "Retail politics and authenticity," he tells ABCNEWS.com. "Up in New Hampshire, they have great expectations of what you need to do as a candidate and you have to do it." --
Raymond should know. After all, he's the one who ran an illegal scheme to make hundreds of calls to jam the phone lines of the state's Democrats on Election Day in 2002. The former consultant, who served three months in jail last year, tells his story and reveals secrets of the trade in his new book, "How to Rig an Election: Confessions of a Republican Operative." --
Raymond blames the Republican Party for making him the fall guy and claims that his scheme was approved by a top state GOP official and the Republican National Committee's northeast regional director. --
Raymond says that the RNC's former New England chairman, James Tobin, called him Oct. 18, 2002, asking, "If I had a couple of phone numbers that I wanted to shut down on Election Day, could you do that?" --
Tobin and state official Chuck McGee were later convicted of charges related to the ploy, which helped John Sunnunu win a 19,000-vote victory to the Senate over Democratic Gov. Jeanne Shaheen. --
But defense lawyers, who were paid more than $6 million by GOP committees, recently won a retrial for James Tobin, the former official with the RNC. --
Raymond lashes out at his "old pals" at the RNC for spending money on Tobin's legal defense "while at the same time labeling me a liar, a rogue and a thief to any news outlet that would listen." --
And he claims that the state GOP wrote him to demand its money back after paying him to carry out the scheme. "They were going to throw me under the bus, but first they wanted to check my pockets to see if there was any cash there," he writes. --
WHEN YOU SEE THE VOTE TOTALS IN N.H. TOMORROW, YOU WILL GET A CHANCE TO SEE HOW MUCH THE VOTERS THERE HAVE REJECTED THE CONS!

"

CJR wrote on Jan 7, 2008 9:20 AM:

" Who does Mr. Burton think he's kidding? --
2006 (in billions of dollars)percent of federal funds budget: 41% Percent of Your 2006 Taxes Go to War -- 571.6, 28% Cost of Past Wars -- 263.5, 13% Total military percent-- 41%, Health Research & Services 393.5, 19%, Responses to Poverty --241.0, 12% Interest on Non-Military Share of Federal Debt -- 211.5, 10% General Government -- 84.6, 4% Community & Economic Development --112.1, 5% Social Programs -- 97.7, 5%
Science, Energy, & Environment 50.8, 2% Non-Military International Programs -- 29.8, 1% -- Facts are facts & no one can dispute the fact that the size of the federal government has increased more under Bush than all previous administrations in recent history 1950s - 2007. He can split hairs all he wants, but our national debt has risen to historical records, deficit spending is more than all other administrations combined. There were record bankruptcies in 2007, & it is estimated that there will be record home foreclosures in 2008. I'm sure Burton will blame the the Democratic Party for this (even though Republicans controled ALL branches of government). And as for the Republicans he'll say heck of a job. When Burton tells you it's warm outside, you better start looking for your coat. When he said in a previous post that -- "The Democratic Party of today allows the demonization of American soldiers by the likes of Pelosi, Reid, Kerry, Kennedy, et al. The Democratic Party "wants" the war to go poorly---WANTS AMERICA TO LOSE THE WAR" he slaps the face of every American family (right-left-middle) who has lost a loved one to war. He can't offer one shred of fact that would suggest that anyone is demonizing our troops. And I'm pretty sure anyone who claims to be liberal is NOT sitting around hoping their families are harmed. He has a lot of nerve to suggest this outrageous & contemptible straw-man argument. This is hate speech on his part & demonstrates what a partisan hack he really is. -- He should be ashamed of himself, for he puts party ahead of our Country & by doing so demonstrates that he has neither integrity, nor basic human decency. Your doing a heck of a job, Burton.
"

ostinmontana wrote on Jan 7, 2008 6:11 AM:

" Words of Ben Franklin never had more meaning than they do today: "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve
neither liberty nor safety." "

L.S. wrote on Jan 7, 2008 3:23 AM:

" Concerned, the only optimistic view on the situation is that the Bush maffia will soon be out of office and this country can hopefully stand for something other than greed and power once again. "

on the side wrote on Jan 6, 2008 10:42 PM:

" tdewing...concerned...gotta love it! :) "

John Burton wrote on Jan 6, 2008 7:17 PM:

" Tdewing: The people are too broke and broken to hurt us? Really? Nothing to win? Really? The opponent can't fight back? Really? One's wanting troops home before Christmas means one supporsts the troops? Really? You're hopeless and lost, tdewing. Really. The Democrats (Socialists) answer to everything, tdewing, is to increase taxes. I will agree that the Republicans, and Bush, have done a miserable job regarding being fiscally conservative; however, to imply that the Democrats will be the party to fix the spending problem would be like the pot calling the kettle black. The Democrats (Socialists) are only good at two things: Increasing taxes and spending. The Democratic Party is financially detrimental to the financial health of every single taxpayer. The only thing the Democrats have to offer is an increase in taxes. Period. You will NEVER see a Socialist offer to cut spending. Never. It won't happen. Why? Because then the Socialist Party (Democratic Party) wouldn't be able to buy votes & continue on in power via the resdistribution of wealth. The "sand playing" in Iraq cost more than Social Security, Medicare and the Department of Transportation combined? Is that a fact? Do tell where you reconoitered that factoid. Remember, tdewing, just saying something doesn't make it true. Maybe you've been watching reruns of Dan Rather. You're from Anaconda? How lovely for you. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 6, 2008 7:02 PM:

" Concerned: If you don't think Islamic fundamentalists are a threat to us, then you probably don't find much of anything very threatening. The intelligence services of Great Britain, France, Italy, Germany, Russia, and the United States ALL said Iraq was in possession of WMDs---all of them. Hussein defied 14 United Nations Resolutions to disarm. He had biological weapons, which he used to kill thousands and thousands of people. This is fact, not fiction. Sticking your head in the sand doesn't make bad people go away, and it certainly won't make them play nice. I defy you to name ONE civil right which you have had taken away. Name ONE. You can't because it never happened. There isn't a single thing you can't do today that you can't do today that you couldn't do before the Patriot Act was passed. NOT ONE THING. "

concerned wrote on Jan 6, 2008 9:14 AM:

" Mr. Burton-just what war are you talking about? The one in Iraq? Why are we there? Why are young people dying there? Do support this war-A BIG NO- do I support our troops-A BIG YES- what right does the US have to go into a country and tell them how to live? They were a threat to us? OKAY where are the weapons of mass destuction? The republcian party leds by Bush would take away our rights if allowed and more then one of those rights have been bent in the name of homeland security. The old if you have nothing to hide then what's the problem line is bull. I say get the government out of my life and get back to what it is suppose to be- Of the people ,for the people-that means all of us . "

tdewing wrote on Jan 6, 2008 2:02 AM:

" There is no war. People are taking my money on behalf of the government and in the name of keeping me safe from people too broke and broken to pay attention and are playing with it in the sand 2700 miles away if you fly over the north pole and getting people I'd rather not see die killed. There is nothing to win. It's not a fight. A fight requires that the opposing party be able to fight back. A few people committing criminal acts here and there does not constitute fighting back, and they are entitled to fight back as it was we who hit them first, and not the other way around. Finally, you don't support our troops unless you wanted them home for Christmas, and it really was a choice between getting the troops home or having them continue to be shot at in Iraq. You can't eat your cake and have it too. As far as tax and spending by the Democratic party is concerned. Democrats have to tax to pay back the money spent by Republicans we didn't have in the first place. The sand playing in Iraq cost more than medicare social security and the department of transportation combined, and thats a fact. You can skew the stats any way you want them to say, but no matter what you say I say its the liars who are lying and contemplate solely on whose bottom is covered by the lie. And if you wanna fight about it hey I'm from Anaconda, lets fight about it. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 4, 2008 7:32 PM:

" Lost prestige in the world? According to whom? A bunch of liberals. What voter fraud? Name the place where it took place. You liberals are unbelievable! You people never like to let small things like facts get in the way of a good story. Every time a liberal feels slighted, what does he do? Cry foul, that's what. You lose the 2004 election; you cry election fraud. Yet, there was absolutely no evidence of it. You liberals all think that the magnitude of the allegation is more important that proving it. You have nothing to offer people but governmental intervention at every turn. The Supreme Court decides against you, and it's a right wing conspiracy. You lose a presidential election; it's voter fraud. Yet, unbelievably (shock!) (Horror!) the individuals (Democrats) who put lips to this nonsense are not able to prove it. You say that your party wants us to win the war?! Since when? Tell me exactly how it is that your idiotic party has done anything at all which would indicate it is supportive of winning this war?! Name one thing. You can't do so. Why? Because your leaders aren't interested in doing what's in the best interests of this country, let alone the armed forces. Your party, and its so called leaders, are interested in furthering their, and vicariously the Democratic Party's, own interests soley for the pursuit and holding onto of power. Your party is INVESTED in promoting this country's defeat in the war in an effort to bring discredit upon the President. I can't count the number of times a Democrat has said: "The war is lost!" It's funny how the Democrats have stopped talking about the war since we are now CLEARLY WINNING THE WAR. The Democratic Party---in word and deed---is a Socialist organization. It is not, and hasn't been, instrumental in passing legislation which is beneficial to the average person in this country. Your party is more interested in telling everyone that the GOVERNMENT is better able to make decisions for John Q. Public than John Q. Public is for himself. Try telling me how it is that the Demcocratic Party is going to help a middle class taxpayer? How is it that your party is going to tax a middle class taxpayer into prosperity? When was it that the Democratic Party last passed tax payer relief? During the Kennedy Administration, that's when. Over 40 years ago. Since that time, the Democrats have advocated increasing taxes at every conceivable turn. Your party is not beneficial the the financial health of any taxpayer. How is your party going to fix Social Security by passing legistlation which will insure its solvency? How about medicare? Tell me when it was that your party even acknowledged that Social Security was in trouble. Harry "the imbecile" Reid said (I paraphrase)"...Social Security is not bankrupt. It will still be able to pay recipients in 2042 approximately 70% of what they currently receive." You Democrats are all alike. You can dish out your bile and vitriol, but you can't take it when it's flung back at you. "

CJR wrote on Jan 4, 2008 5:29 PM:

" Get a grip John, you're sounding unhinged. I'd say that for the last 7-years, America under Bush & a solidly packed Republican Congress & Supreme Court, America has lost prestige in the world, while our nation has obstructed on nearly every piece of legislation intended to remedy environmental problems and other problems that affect regular folks. And Republicans have NOT accomplished anything that has made a positive impact on the mass of Americans. Through indiscriminate law breaking,torture, voter cagging, election fraud & unnecessary war and erosion of the middle-class, we have probably the worst presidential administration ever. You want to blame everything on the Democratic Party. What great accomplishments have been made by your party? I'm NOT particularly pleased with the Democratic Party either, but after 7-years of Republican rule we are a diminished country & because we have only a 2-party system, which is unfortunate, a new administration will be given a chance to turn things around. When you have over 70% of the population thinking that the Country is on the wrong path, change is called for. Hopefully, we can realize improvements in our government that will be through bipartisan efforts. Time will tell. However, the Democratic Party will be given the chance, and it really isn't the Communist Party. Your comment that Americans want us to lose the war is just a pathetic comment & reflects on how unstable you are. Yea, we all sit around & hope our country is destroyed & our friends, neighbors and family members harmed. That's idiotic, absurd and so cruel; it makes you sound mentally disturbed. Keep up these comments & you will continue to recruit more progressives helping to sweep the neocons out for another 40-years. To answer your juvenile questions, no the Democratic Party has not eliminated poverty, or solved every problem, but the Country has risen to be the greatest nation on earth. Under Republican rule during the 40-years you mention, there's no question that we would have been worse off. Luckily for us the Republicans as a party will return to the trash heap where they belong, or until they return to their roots of Lincoln & Teddy Roosevelt. Now, chill out dude, before you have a stoke or nervous break-down. You need a vacation, you're reverting to your typical patern of doing a melt-down on the internet & it's sad to see you sinking by the post. You're like a ticking time-bomb & the scary part is you are probably frighting your family & loved ones, if you still have any. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 4, 2008 4:11 PM:

" Is it ridiculous? Is it? The Democratic Party of today has nothing whatsoever in common with the politics of FDR, Truman or JFK. The Democratic Party of today is nothing more than a front group for Socialism. The Democratic Party of today allows the demonization of American soldiers by the likes of Pelosi, Reid, Kerry, Kennedy, et al. The Democratic Party "wants" the war to go poorly---WANTS AMERICA TO LOSE THE WAR---if for no other reason than to hold onto power. The Democratic Party does absolutely NOTHING for anyone. You're party, CJR, was in control of both houses of Congress for 40+ years!! During that time, what did you do for the average American?! What?! Did you solve poverty? Under Democratic legislative rule, the federal government spent over 1 trillion dollars (a thousand billion!!) social programs. OVER A TRILLION DOLLARS. Did your party end poverty? Make schools better? End discrimination? Put and end to crime? The answer to all the above is a resounding NO! Your party's answer to everything is to make people dependent upon government for nearly everything! Your Party doesn't have an answer for anything except to call for "the rich" (who you will never define) to be taxed, and taxed, and taxed, and taxed. Your party is a joke, and its political ideology hinges on the redistribution of wealth. Plain and simple. To deny it is ludicrous. "

CJR wrote on Jan 4, 2008 10:48 AM:

" To suggest that the Democratic Party is the same as -- "any liberal (Socialist/Collectivist/Bolshevist/Democrat)".. is simply ridiculous. No wonder the majority of Americans are fed up with the extreme right-wing of the Republican Party which had been in control for nearly 7-years. People want change & it's not likely to be led by neocons next time. One thing is for sure, when this current crop of Republicans were left in charge of the government, they proved government doesn't work. I'll take my chances on our democracy & the type of leaders who represented the liberal wing of the Democratic Party -- FDR, Truman & JFK. I'd even settle for Republicans like - Ike, Lincoln, or Teddy Roosevelt. I also subscribe to the notion that we must be vigilant and we have enemies foreign & domestic. Unfortunately, it's the domestic enemy that is likely to do us the most harm .. those who always put partisanship ahead of country -- the current neocon crowd. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 3, 2008 9:49 PM:

" You are right CJR. We do have people in today's society who are analagous to the citizens of Hitler's Germany; they are called Democrats---unthinking, ignorant, naieve, individuals who are always looking for someone to blame for their own shortcomings. Show me a liberal/democrat and I'll show you someone who thinks the path to individual salvation lies in governmental intervention. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 3, 2008 9:44 PM:

" Ignorance and naivete are encouraged in today's Democrats. "

John Burton wrote on Jan 3, 2008 9:37 PM:

" If one were to replace the Democrats in both houses of our country's legislative branch with members of the former USSR's "politburo," one would not notice much difference between the two groups of people. Today's Democratic Party is controlled by people who will AT ALL COSTS side with the notion that government is to be trusted above individuals. Regardless of what these liberal say, they are a party of negativism, defeatism, socialism, and collectivism. As Mikhail Gorbachav said, "More socialism means more democracy, openess and collectivism in everyday life." This EXACTLY defines the thinking of today's liberals. Power granted to and wielded by government is good---any liberal (Socialist/Collectivist/Bolshevist/Democrat) will tell you so. "

VB208 wrote on Jan 3, 2008 5:17 PM:

" RGF, if you think there isn't an enemy out there, you are officially dumber than CJR. "

CJR wrote on Jan 3, 2008 1:02 PM:

" Mr. Geach is not relevant; not applicable or pertinent: His ramblings often stray to arcane but irrelevant subjects. Example: when he goes off & starts comparing current realities of the economy, taxation & war to be grounded in the past practices of Bolsheviks. There really is NO case to be made that anyone advocating something different than today's sorry Republican Party, is a Bolshevik. This is why he's our local tinfoil hat guy. -- IRRELEVENT

"

CJR wrote on Jan 3, 2008 11:26 AM:

" I think Geach is a crackpot who's trying to live in the 40s still. So how did that communist infiltration work out comrade? Can you spell IRELEVENT? "

RGF wrote on Jan 3, 2008 11:12 AM:

" Too bad the Red's aren't still our enemies, we wouldn't have had to go looking for new ones to justify the govenment's scare tactics. "

Robert D. Geach Sr. wrote on Jan 3, 2008 10:27 AM:

" Joe McCarthy was on to something...The government during F.D.R.'s administration was full of communists from top to bottom...garnered from depositories in America's universities during the depression....especially the State Department...That's how Stalin was able to flummox F.D.R. at Yalta...F.D.R. was ill and no match for the crafty, sinister Stalin...Churchill had the measure of Stalin though, but F.D.R. ignored him...For a start on communist infiltration of the government, check out W. Chambers' "Pumpkin Papers", and letter to his children on the net. "

biggumbah62 wrote on Jan 3, 2008 9:10 AM:

" Thank our lucky stars that Bush wasn't in the Whitehouse then. "

CJR wrote on Jan 3, 2008 8:56 AM:

" It's interesting to note that we have resident fellows (those who blog often on the TMS) that STILL reflect the fascist folly of McCarthy people like -- Geach & Con, Nimrod. The take over by Hitler of Germany was accomplished because their was support for him. We have such people in our communities today. "

you called someone an idiot, a racist, a dope, a moron, etc. Please, no name-calling or profanity (or veiled profanity -- #$%^&*).

you rambled, failed to stay on topic or exhibited troll-like behavior intended to hijack the discussion at hand.

YOU SHOUTED YOUR COMMENT IN ALL CAPS. This is hard to read and annoys readers.

you have issues with a business. Have a bad meal? Feel you were overcharged at the store? New car is a lemon? Contact the business directly with your customer service concerns.

you believe the newspaper's coverage is unfair. It would be better to write the editor at editor@mtstandard.com, or call Editor Gerry O'Brien at 496-5513 or Opinion Editor Roberta Stauffer at 496-5514. This is a forum for community discussion, not for media criticism. We'd rather address your concerns directly.

you included an e-mail address or phone number, pretended to be someone you aren't or offered a comment that makes no sense.

you accused someone of a crime or assigned guilt or punishment to someone suspected of a crime.

your comment is in really poor taste.
The Montana Standard reserves the right to remove comments considered inappropriate for the community forum.

Hoover’s frightening plan

By The Associated Press - 01/02/2008

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